Episode 43

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Published on:

3rd Feb 2023

043: Kim Trathen - Money Mindset & Our Relationship

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Kim Trathen is a business, money, and mindset coach, three things that are foundational to the process of building wealth and creating financial independence for our families. Her favorite topic is how our thoughts about money shape our ability to make more money.

Today, Kim joins the show to share how her own relationship with money was forged, what inspired her to become an entrepreneur, and why she is so passionate about helping female founders.

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Key Takeaways

00:59 – Jonathan introduces today’s guest, Kim Trathen, who joins the share her philosophy on money, what it means to have a healthy relationship with money, and the importance of awareness

09:33 – What inspired Kim to start her own business

13:39 – A passion for helping women and the difference between a consultant and a coach

20:08 – The importance of entrepreneurship in the journey to financial independence

28:35 – Kim speaks to some of the more common ‘mainstream’ money beliefs

32:36 – One piece of financial advice to focus on and one thing to absolutely avoid

35:17 – The last thing Kim changed her mind about and the one question she would like to know the answer to

36:28 – Jonathan thanks Kim for joining the show today and lets listeners know where to connect with her

Tweetable Quotes

“Saving is such an important part of being financially healthy, but I took it to an extreme where I actually made us live like we were poor. And we would sock everything away so that I wouldn’t see it, because I had this deep perception that I might turn into a nasty person if I had access to all of this money.” (04:43) (Kim)

“I think, as so often happens with things, whatever is the negative that is going on seems to have the stronger influence on the brain. It’s not too surprising that I came out with that unhealthy relationship with money because that was the negative piece that my brain hung onto. As our brains process information, we all absorb it differently, and it impacts us differently. It wasn’t until I was well into adulthood that I started recognizing that maybe that’s not the healthiest approach that I have.” (08:03) (Kim)

“When I first sat down I had a divine inspiration one night that I really didn’t want to work foranybody else. I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I wanted to have that freedom lifestyle. I wantedto be able to make choices about how I spend my time, who I spend my time with, things likethat. So, I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur.”(13:45) (Kim)

“Some people will ask what’s the difference between a coach and consultant. My personaldefinition is that a consultant will come in and tell you how to do something. So, if you hire aSales consultant, they will come in and tell you how to do your Sales; they will train your people.A Marketing consultant may write your entire Marketing Plan for you. I view my role as a coachis to help my clients make the best decisions for their business.”(14:52) (Kim)

“Not only are fewer women being given funding for their businesses when they apply, they also receive less funding than their male counterparts. But far fewer women, even today, are even applying for funding.” (21:47) (Kim)

“I always tell my clients, ‘Every belief and behavior gives you every result.’ Everything you believe leads to what you do. And that’s what gives you every result in your life in business. Those beliefs from society are just deep within each and every one of us, and it takes intention to start untangling some of those.” (28:17) (Kim)

“I heard this quote once upon a time. ‘If you talk to your friends the way you talk to yourself you probably wouldn’t have any.’” (35:00) (Kim)

Guest Resources

Kim’s LinkedIn

Kim’s Website

Kim’s Instagram

Kim’s Facebook

Kim’s TikTok

Kim’s Facebook Group

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Transcript

Jonathan DeYoe: Welcome back. On this episode of the Mindful Money podcast, I’m chatting with Kim Trathen She’s a business, money and mindset coach. Three things I think are foundational to the process of building wealth and creating financial independence for our families. Her favorite topic is how our thoughts about money shape our ability to create more money, something I think we’ll be getting into deeply today. Kim, welcome to the Mindful Money podcast.

Kim Trathen: Thank you, Jonathan. I’m super excited to be here and talk with you and your audience about this, and I think money is such a fun topic to explore, so I’m really excited to dive into it today.

Jonathan DeYoe: Great. Let’s do it. But before we do, well, just let everyone know where you’re calling in, know where’s home.

Kim Trathen: Yeah. Thanks. I am in Michigan, near the Grand Rapids area, so I’m currently seeing snow on the ground as we record this right now, and I’m looking forward to warmer weather soon.

Jonathan DeYoe: I had a budy of mine who lived in Bemidji, Wisconsin, I think. I think it’s a very similar process where it gets so cold that if you leave your car out overnight and it gets that cold and you try to move the car, it actually rips the tire. Does that ever happen to you?

Kim Trathen: Oh, my gosh. We have not had that happen. But up in the upper peninsula of Michigan is where they will continually have negative 20, negative 30 degree weather. So up there is where they deal with that stuff really bad.

Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Cold. Did you grow up there? Michigan?

Kim Trathen: Yeah, I did. Not too far from where we live now. I grew up in this, you know, this is the time of year when Michigan is the hardest. And then we remind ourselves every summer, this is why we live in Michigan, when we have the great lakes. And it’s beautiful in the summertime, but we endure some, um, harsh conditions in the winter months.

Jonathan DeYoe: No question. You know, when you were growing up, what did you learn about money, entrepreneurship? Did your parents sort of give you education in this topic, or did you learn it on your own?

Kim Trathen: Yeah, good question. I would say that I grew up in an upper middle class home. We always had a house and a cottage and boats and sea dos, and my mom didn’t work. We definitely had enough money. I do not have a rags to riches story, but I think no matter what our upbringing is, every single human, every single child, they’re absorbing all these messages throughout their lives. So I grew up in a household where we always had enough money. My parents very much had, like, a Dave Ramsey mentality of, you only pay cash for things. My mom actually had an entrepreneurial bug, and before Dave Ramsey blew up and was a household name that everybody knew about, she had created an item called the budget boss, and it was a folder system where you would take your cash out, and you would put it in these plastic envelopes, and you’d write down, like, here’s my gas budget, here’s my grocery budget. And you would only pay cash for things. We used to make jokes that she should get into churches, and the slogan could be, jesus saves and so should you. So these were for sale for a while. Ended up the business, didn’t get off the ground. But that was the mentality that I grew up with, that you don’t access credit for things you save until you have cash. But sometimes we absorb messages about money that weren’t specifically taught to us with intention. Those were lessons that were taught to me with intention. The things that I absorbed that were not taught to me with intention were. I ended up forming a perception that people who have money are not very nice people. My dad was a very difficult human, to say the least. He had an alcohol problem. He had narcissistic personality disorder, and so he was a difficult father to grow up with. So what I found into my adulthood, and it took me a long time to recognize it, but I suddenly realized, like, oh, saving is such an important part of being financially healthy. But I took it to an extreme where I actually made us live like we were poor, and we would sock everything away so that I wouldn’t see it, because I had this deep perception that, well, gosh, I might turn into a nasty person if I have access to all of this money. So I feel like maybe a little bit of a unique. It wasn’t the rags to riches story, but it also wasn’t like, oh, I just grew up around money and always had this great relationship with money. It was more like we grew up with more than enough money, and I still formed a poor relationship with money.

Jonathan DeYoe: Uh, you know what? I’ve worked with hundreds of people, and everyone that I’ve worked with has had some. Grow up with lots of money. Grow up with no money. They all have issues with money, so I think it’s very normal. Your mom, what was it called? The budget boss.

Kim Trathen: Budget boss.

Jonathan DeYoe: Budget boss.

Kim Trathen: Budget boss, boss.

Jonathan DeYoe: So she’s like the O-G-F-I. Purveyor from, like, 40 years ago. This is a long time ago. Right. That’s incredible. What a great lesson to learn. Do you have any experiences you had with her around, um, just learning how to do money and how to manage money that are, like, very specific that form your foundation?

ld have been, like, the early:

Jonathan DeYoe: I wouldn’t say I got bad lessons from my dad, but I got different lessons from my mom and my dad. So did you learn different lessons from mom and dad growing up around money?

Kim Trathen: I think they had similar philosophies around money, so I wouldn’t say it was necessarily like that. They had different viewpoints of money. I think they had very similar philosophies around it.

Jonathan DeYoe: How did growing up with. I don’t want to say a nasty person, but it sounds like your dad wasn’t the friendliest person around money, and you grew up with that on one end, and you grew up with your mom, the budget boss, on the other side. How did those learning those two lessons, how did you blend those in your life?

Kim Trathen: I think it was hard when I was younger because I think young brains naturally just meld things together. And I didn’t necessarily see this distinction at a younger age. As I got older and as I got into adulthood and I started really recognizing, like, oh, why do I have this XYz relationship with money? Why do I sock it all away? And, uh, one time, my shoe broke, and I glued my high heel back onto my shoe instead of just going and buying a new pair of shoes. There was no reason for that.

Jonathan DeYoe: My wife would still do that, by.

Kim Trathen: The way, let her know if she can go buy a new pair of shoes.

Jonathan DeYoe: I do. Does no good. Not that she wears high heels anymore.

Kim Trathen: Right? We all outgrow those eventually, too. I think so, yeah. I don’t think I did a great job of separating those things when I was younger, and I think it so often happens with things. Whatever is the negative going on seems to have a stronger influence on the brain. Right. So it’s not too surprising that I came out with that unhealthy relationship with money, because that was, like, the negative piece that my brain glommed onto. And then we all. I think as our brains process information, we all absorb it differently and it impacts us differently. And so, for me, it’s like, that’s how it presented. And it wasn’t until I was well into adulthood that I started recognizing, like, oh, gosh, maybe that’s not the healthiest approach that I have.

Jonathan DeYoe: Do you find yourself being pulled back into it occasionally? Like, uh, I want to hide this for myself so I don’t appear a certain way. Do you find yourself getting pulled back into it?

Kim Trathen: Yes. I think it is almost anything. If you have a pattern of doing something for 20, 30, 40 years, like, you’ve naturally developed this through your upbringing. It doesn’t just change overnight. I think awareness is the first stage where we’re starting to see, like, oh, this thing here is a problem. This thing over here would be more beneficial, but it’s just like diet and exercise, right? We all know that we should move more and eat less or choose healthier foods, but actually doing it is the.

Jonathan DeYoe: Hard part, for sure. I just wrote a chapter for a book, and I do have that rags to riches story a little bit, but I still fear, like, I’m still terrified of not having it or running out or disappearing. And so the idea that there’s the stuff in the background that happens to us when we grow up, and you don’t really ever lose that? You constantly have to go back and revisit it and look at it?

Kim Trathen: Yes.

Jonathan DeYoe: Just before we look at what you’re doing as a business coach, what did you do before and what made you want to start your own business?

Kim Trathen: Oh, good question. So, in college, I was a stats major in an econ minor, and I ended up getting a job at a local actuarial consulting firm out of college. I spent about six to seven years in the actuarial department as a pension analyst, running the reports on all of the pension plans, doing testing, things like that. And then I moved into our 401K department and spent about six years there as an administrator on, um, 401K plans, some ksops, some esops, different things like that. And I was really unhappy in that work. I was not cut out for it. It did not bring me joy. It was a job I could do. And through a tragedy, I had a friend that was murdered in an act of domestic violence. And going through that experience, I ended up becoming really connected with our local domestic violence shelter. I had thrown in partnership with one of my other friends. We created a large fundraising event, and the two of us raised about $5,500 for the local domestic violence shelter. And that kind of got the wheels turning where I realized how much I loved event planning, designing things, that was truly fun to me. The work that I did at the actuarial consulting firm, again, it was a great employer, but it didn’t light me up, it didn’t bring me all this joy. But through that series of events, I ended up working a part time temporary job for the local domestic violence shelter, which then caught the eye of the actuarial firm, and they did not have a marketing department at time, at that time. And so I ended up moving out of the 401K department and moving into a role of marketing. I became head of marketing for the actuarial firm, and I spent about six years, I was with the firm just shy, like two months shy of 20 years when I left the retirement plan industry and went full time into my own business. So at the time I launched my business, I had been working in marketing for several years at that point in time. And I really sat down and I thought, what would I love to be doing? What would light my soul on fire? And being the former stats geek that I was, I sat down and I made a ven diagram, and I had my skills on one side, my passions on the other, and I looked for the overlap. And because of the connection that I had with the domestic violence world, my top passion was supporting women. And my top marketable skill that I saw was my marketing knowledge. So when I first started my business, I think I even called myself a marketing coach, and I really focused on helping women learn how to market their businesses. And then it grew and evolved over the last, that was five years ago now that I originally started my business. And it grew and evolved over that time, and I realized, like, wow, I’m actually just really good at helping people make money. I’m really good at helping them see kind of their limiting beliefs, things that are holding them back with their business, with money, with their time, with setting boundaries. And so throughout that work, and working with more clients, I segued into this. Now, as you said, I call myself a business money and mindset coach, and I help a variety of small businesses scale their businesses to that next level.

Jonathan DeYoe: So I have a follow up question that I want to dig into. So you mentioned that before, a little technical difficulties, you had mentioned that you liked being an event planner marketing person more than working in the accounting department. Surprise. Like, I never would have thought that would be shocking. Shocking.

Speaker D: Shocking. I know. Shocking turn of events.

Jonathan DeYoe: Oh, uh, wow. Yeah. I don’t know that actuaries have joy. I mean, I say that, but I’m sure there’s actuaries listening, and I feel bad, but it’s not like the thing that would turn me on, right.

Speaker D: It’s not the most outgoing profession. I mean, the biggest joke was everybody talks about how boring accountants are, and the biggest joke is that even accountants think actuaries are boring.

Jonathan DeYoe: I wasn’t going to say it, but I’m glad you did. Why when you start business, why coaching? And specifically, why business coaching.

Speaker D: Yeah. So when I first sat down, I had a divine inspiration one night that I really didn’t want to work for anybody else. I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I wanted to have that freedom, lifestyle. I wanted to be able to make choices about how I spend my time, who I spend my time with, things like that. So I knew that I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And so then I started asking myself, what is that even going to look like? And I explored several different things. At first, I even looked at starting an ecommerce business, and I thought, I’m not any more passionate about selling scarves online or any other ecommerce things than I am, um, actuarial work. And I thought, this is just like trading one thing that I don’t love for another thing I don’t love. So when I discovered the coaching space, the coaching industry, it was this instant connection for me, it was like, yes, I’ve always been a people person. I was always the person that was advising my friends and working through problems and figuring out what are all of the options for you to pursue? And that’s really the Kim trathen definition of coaching. Some people will ask, what’s the difference between a coach and consultant? My personal definition is that a consultant will come in and tell you how to do something. So if you hire a sales consultant, they will come in and tell you how to do your sales. They will train your people. A marketing consultant may write your entire marketing plan for you. And a coach. I view my role as a coach is to help my clients make the best decisions for their business. So I have some clients that go full speed ahead using social media, and that’s where they get all their clients from. I had another client that was like, I actually don’t love being on social media. And so she took herself off social media, and we developed the strategies that she was going to use to continue growing her business without it. Whereas a consultant might come in and say, here’s your social media strategy. You’re going to post this many times a day. I really view my role as a coach is just to help my clients process their decisions, really think through what are the pros and cons of this? And so often what we think about something impacts how we actually implement something. So we take a long look at, like, my client, who took herself off of social media. She was terrified to do it because she thought that’s where all of her clients came from. And then we sat down and we were really looking at it, and it’s like, well, you have a huge following on your podcast. You have your email list. You, uh, have people approaching you to speak. You’ve spoken at universities, right? There was this whole area where she was growing relationships that had nothing to do with Facebook or Instagram, right? And so coaching was instantly aligned with who I naturally am and how I already viewed myself and what I already knew. Some of my personality strengths were for the industry. So it was as soon as I found out about the coaching space, it was a no brainer for me. And then the reason why it was in businesses was really because I just thought, how can I use my marketing skills to help women? That was my main goal in the beginning. And so coaching was such a natural. I literally, on my ven diagram when I had the center, like, here’s the overlap I had written down for myself. I could either help them figure out how they do their marketing or I could do done for you services, right? I could have launched as a marketing consultant and done that. And then it came down to that question of joy for myself again. And I saw myself ten years down the road. I thought, I don’t want to be writing email funnels and campaigns and things like that. Ten years from now I can teach people how to do that. So I saw so much more growth with the coaching industry as opposed to becoming what I would have called like a marketing consultant.

Jonathan DeYoe: Let me ask it this way. Do you help people that maybe are unsure that they want to start a business? Start a business? I mean, what stage do you come in to coach them?

Speaker D: It’s looked a little bit different over the years that I’ve been coaching. Currently I work with existing small business owners and I’m very passionate about talking about women’s rights and the disparity that still exist, financial disparity in the workplace. Far too few women receive the same level of funding for their businesses that male owners are given. But I don’t only work with female business owners. I like to say I don’t like to work with clients that are interested in serving the patriarchal views that I don’t think help anybody, regardless of gender. But I work with all heart led humans that have a purpose and a mission and they want to make a bigger impact through their businesses.

Jonathan DeYoe: I’m just remembering, I don’t know how old it was or how many years ago, but in the mid 70s when your mother went in for the credit card and she did not request her husband to sign the co sign on it. I’m seeing you now sort of carrying the same torch in a different space.

Speaker D: Yes.

Jonathan DeYoe: Do you see that lining up?

Speaker D: Yes, 100%. And I think that the difference in times and the things that I got to witness.

Kim Trathen: Right.

a male co signer. I think of:

Jonathan DeYoe: So the question is, do you have a daughter? Because you’re not going to be alive long enough to carry it all the way through to the end. So you need to have another generation to finish the job, right?

Speaker D: Well, so far I have three sons and I don’t see any more children in our future.

Jonathan DeYoe: There goes that. It’s never going to finish.

Speaker D: I have a niece, though. I have a niece. She has no idea what work lays ahead for her.

Jonathan DeYoe: Train her well, yeah, I want to pick on this idea of the importance of entrepreneurship really quick. So I was skiing last weekend with a buddy of mine who is super successful, and he was lamenting the fact that he wished he was a better investor because he was jealous of one of our friends who seems to be a great investor, who’s uber wealthy. He’s doing really, really well. All the guy’s money was built through owning a business and running a business. It wasn’t through investing, but the illusion that my buddy had was that he did it all by investing. So much of our culture’s wealth is built by owning a business, running a business, starting a business, creating a business. And as you said, women were shut out of that for a long time. You can’t get funding through a bank until 88. You can’t really get like, it’s 2% or 3% of startups. Female startups are funded by venture capital. It’s not a huge percentage.

Speaker D: No.

Jonathan DeYoe: So when you step into that space and you’re coaching in that space, are you intentional about supporting women in really growing big businesses? Not just the mom and pop, but a big business, being really successful in driving like, let’s get some venture capital money in this, let’s grow this thing. And then how does that process work?

Speaker D: Yeah. Oh, I love this topic. I haven’t personally worked with any business owners that have gone for the VC funding what it looks like for most of my clients, and the way that it shows up is that a lot of my clients are earlier stage entrepreneurs, but they have the vision of, I want to get this to a million dollar a year business.

Kim Trathen: Right.

Speaker D: They have these revenue goals that they want to hit. And where I see it coming in is that so many women, how we view money and how we view debt are one and the same. In my mind, they’re very integrated. And so not only are fewer women being given funding for their businesses when they apply, they also receive less funding than their male counterparts, but far fewer women, even today, are even applying for funding. So part of that, about 2% of VC funding goes to female owned businesses. Part of the problem is that fewer women are applying for it, but then the other part is fewer of them get it. I don’t know if you have listeners around the world, but in the US here, about 27% of traditional business loans through a bank, about 27% are applied for by women and 73% are applied for by men. So even when we talk about, right, not in the tech industry with VC funding, but even when we talk about traditional bank loans, it’s far fewer women that are applying for funding. And then with those traditional bank loans for businesses, women on average get about 65% of the amount that their male counterparts get. So it usually opens up quite a deeper conversation with my clients. I have many clients that try to start their businesses debt free. Many of the women try to start debt free. Where men are leveraging that debt to grow their business, women often tie some component of shame to it, of like, I failed. If I can’t start this debt free, which is fascinating to me, because by and large, that is not how the male business owners are starting their businesses. By and large, men are like, okay, I’m going to start this business. First thing I need to do is get funding for this, this and this. They just go get the funding first. Where so many women are like, I need a successful business and I need to have all these things in place. And then if it gets to a point where I’m making hundreds of thousands of dollars, then I’ll go get a loan so that I can scale beyond that and it holds back their businesses. Early stage are difficult, yes. And then their businesses aren’t growing at the rate that other entrepreneurs are who either leverage that funding or again, when we make these, and it’s not true 100% of the time, but again, the numbers don’t lie. More men apply for funding as business owners than women do.

Jonathan DeYoe: And when you think about in more modern businesses, that first mover advantage, that network effect, if you don’t grow quickly out of the gate, you lose. You have to have something that fast out of the gate. And if you’re reticent to borrow or take on an equity partner or take funding from somebody else because you want to protect it or grow it to a certain stage. First, you end up growing almost unintentionally. You end up growing slower and losing the raise because you grow slower. Does that resonate?

their own business loan until:

Kim Trathen: Right?

Speaker D: Her 19 year old son could have co signed on the loan for her. And so when we talk about women who are maybe in their thirty s or forty s, like I am, most of us did not grow up with seeing a mom as an entrepreneur. Most women did not grow up. And if they were, it was very often the Mary Kay, the Tupperware. And I’m not here to throw shade at any businesses, but they were starting them debt free out of their basements, or they were asking their husbands for a few hundred dollars. They were not going and taking out. The majority of them were not going and taking out bank loans to start that type of business. There were very few women that were accessing funding, because if we think about it, their only choices were, I have to convince a male relative to buy into my vision, my dream and what I see possible, and have him, hm, co sign on this or I have to do it debt free. My theory is that the majority of women did it debt free when they wanted to, which again, capped the growth that they saw in their businesses. But then again, they were raising sons and daughters who didn’t see women getting funding. So then, uh, it just perpetuates it. So now these adult women are thinking that to do this, they need to go. And so many clients that I’ve had, it’s like they think once they make XYZ dollars in their business, it might be 20,000, it might be 200,000. The number varies, but they have this number in mind where once I make this much, then everybody will see me as a real business owner, and then I can go and request funding. It might even be their spouse, right? Like, once I hit this amount, then my husband will believe in me. Then this is a real business instead of, I’m starting this business right now, and here’s what needs to happen. It holds them back big time.

Jonathan DeYoe: And I know that this is almost an impossible question, but if you had to say 50% of that comes from a personal belief and 50% of that comes from a cultural attribution, how much of that do you think is individuals who are trying to be smart and protect themselves, and how much of that is sort of a cultural overlay that says, hey, you need to not go for loans, or you don’t know what you’re doing, or that’s meaning it that way.

Speaker D: It’s like the chicken and the egg, right? But I almost want to say that the societal views are what feed into the personal choices, because people in general society is shamed for taking out, really, any type of debt, unless it’s a mortgage, a car loan, or a student loan. Anything other than that. Society is like, oh, that’s risky. You shouldn’t do that. What if it goes under? What if you can’t pay it? What if you get yourself in trouble? That is the overarching theme that we are taught from the time we are teeny tiny. We are also very much conditioned to think that a nine to five job is safer than starting your own business. And I’ve become even aware of thinking about how so many of us pay kids a weekly allowance. Right. We are used to getting that financial hit regular clockwork on a specific day. It’s really preparing us for a nine to five job. Entrepreneurship, um, can look very different. The sky is the limit with how much you can make. There is no financial cap, really, on a business owner, other than we all create our own glass ceilings and businesses plateau for that very reason. Right. But truly, when we talk about it in theory, there is no financial cap on a business owner like there is in a nine to five job. But we are so taught that that is the risky road that I think when these persons, when these women, when they have this vision to start a business, they’re ingrained with all of that. It’s risky to take out loans. Debt is irresponsible. A business is a risk. A nine to five would be more stable. So I think that all of those societal views that we’ve all been ingrained with, then shape their personal beliefs around it. And I always tell my clients, every belief and behavior gives you every result. Right? Everything you believe leads to what you do, and that’s what gives you every result in your life and business. And those beliefs from society are just deep within each and every one of us. And it takes intention to start untangling some of those.

Jonathan DeYoe: So you just listed a few things that would fall under the category that I’ve heard you talk about this in other venues. The mainstream money beliefs. Yeah, I think you talked about the business side, but there are a bunch of sort of more personal things that we believe that aren’t true as well. Could you just kind of run down? I know you may have a short list or. What are the three ones you see the most?

Speaker D: Yeah, well, one of them, um, I just touched on where I think we have this category of debt that is deemed socially acceptable. The student loans, the mortgages and the cars, and then anything outside of that is deemed irresponsible or risky. So that would be one of them. Um, I would say another one of the money beliefs is that I truly believe that we can shape, we can choose our thoughts, we can choose what we believe about things. But so many people walking around don’t realize how much what they believe impacts their wealth. And the reason is because of what we’re doing, right? So even for somebody that is in a nine to five corporate job, they may be capping themselves because. And women are notorious for this, but there are men, too. They may be capping themselves because they’re not advocating for a raise, they’re not going after promotions that they really would be qualified to do, right? They’re not bringing it up and saying, hey, I just did XYZ or I just landed this client. I think I’m entitled to a raise. It’s this sit and wait approach instead of advocating for yourself and that comes into entrepreneurship and nine to five, right? It’s these basic money beliefs that we are only entitled to have what we’re given instead of going after more what we want. And then I had a third one in my brain, and I just derailed it. I would say, too, that the third big one is that there are all different forms of investing in your future that you can do. And so this is tied right in with the debt one. But when we’re talking about launching our businesses, when we’re talking about growing businesses, especially at the early stage, what I find, too, is that when entrepreneurs do use their personal funds to invest in their business, then they shame themselves for that. So it’s like you’re damned if you do, and, uh, maybe we don’t. Swear on this podcast.

Jonathan DeYoe: Swear if you’d like.

Speaker D: Damned if you do, and you’re damned if you don’t. Right? Like, they carry too much shame to go get a business loan, but then they invest from their personal finances, and they carry shame from that. Where really, if you think about being an investor in your own business, you can adopt that mentality and say, oh, I’m going to go out and get a bank loan, and this is investing in my business from this resource here. And then I’m also going to invest personal funds in, and then you can also pay yourself back, right? That’s the goal with the business is that it’s profit and you’re paying these things off.

Jonathan DeYoe: I think that one of the things I’ve heard you say is that the sacrosanct, and I just wanted to say I’ve actually used my four hundred and one k to start a business. So that’s something you’re told not to do, but it’s something that you do because you’re investing in yourself. Like do you want to own stocks and bonds or do you want to invest in something that you can grow, that you can put your elbow grease into, that you can put your passion into and make grow even faster? That’s the thing.

Speaker D: And when you think about starting your own business like that, what are we doing in a 401k plan? We’re investing in other people’s businesses.

Jonathan DeYoe: That’s all we’re doing, right?

Speaker D: That’s all we’re doing. We are investing in other people’s businesses. And when you invest in your own business, it’s like, okay, do I want to put my money into this business over here or am I really willing to bet on myself?

Jonathan DeYoe: Right.

Speaker D: And I would argue that when you invest in yourself, you have way more control over what happens in that business than you do by investing in somebody else’s.

Jonathan DeYoe: I think that scares people. I think that’s one of the things.

Speaker D: I think it does.

Jonathan DeYoe: It’s terrifying to say I’m going to run my own show and I trust that I am going to run it.

Speaker D: Well, that’s very, because think about if the market tanks and the 401K goes down, right, people, I’ll make a big general they love, oh, man, the market went down and this did it. And that did it. But if it’s your own business now, it’s like, oh, I did it. That was me.

Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. I think we’re getting close here because I know that you’ve got an appointment coming up, but I do want to ask everybody to really simplify advice for us. So let’s pretend for a second that you’re on the plane, someone sits down next to you, it’s a woman who has a business and she just starts peppering you with questions. What is one thing that you suggest that she should do that will actually improve her personal and financial outcomes?

Speaker D: Love that. Number one tip that I would give is question every thought that goes through your brain and ask yourself, is this just a belief I’m holding or is this provable in a court of law? Because just like two people can wake up to the same weather outside and one can look outside and say, oh, my gosh, it’s cloudy, it’s gray, and it’s rainy. What a terrible day. Somebody else can look outside and say, oh, my gosh, it’s cloud. It’s rainy and it’s gray. I’m going to go for a walk in the woods today. I’m going to take the kids out, and we’re going to go on the trails, and we’re going to explore, and this is going to be an adventure. And if it’s not provable in a court of law, right. If it’s a good day or a bad day, not provable in a court of law, that’s just your opinion, and you have a choice, and you get to choose that saying it’s 60 degrees outside would be provable in a court of law. And if you start investigating every thought that comes through your brain and asking yourself, is this provable in a court of law? Or is this something I’m choosing to believe? Because then you have the choice of changing that belief, and you will start doing things that scared you in your business. You will request funding. You will start making decisions that are going to move your business forward faster because you no longer have the scapegoat of letting a belief that you could change and letting you treat it as though it was factually true. We stop being quite as scared because we can see what the options really are.

Jonathan DeYoe: I love it. That’s the mindfulness m answer. We put a space between the thought and the act, right? So that’s one thing to do. We all swim in this soup of just craziness, and we’re inundated with crap, usually people trying to sell us stuff. What’s one thing that we may be focused on, or that this woman that you’re sitting next to on the plane might be focused on that you would say, you know what? Just ignore that.

Speaker D: Let that this is going to be the one that is easier said than done, but it’s actually just stop doubting yourself. Just stop doubting yourself when you believe your success is inevitable and that no matter what, you’re going to get there. The timeline is just. We don’t know what the timeline for sure is, but stop doubting yourself and believe that you’ll be successful.

Jonathan DeYoe: It’s true. We are all our own, um, worst enemies. Like, we all get in our own ways all the time.

Speaker D: Yeah, I heard the quote once upon a time, and I can’t remember the name of the book that it was in, but the author said, if you talk to your friends the way you talk to yourself, you probably wouldn’t have any.

Jonathan DeYoe: True that, right?

Speaker D: Uh, it’s so true. So true.

Jonathan DeYoe: So just before we wrap up, I want to go personal. Get back to personal really quick. What was the last thing you changed your mind about?

Speaker D: What a great question. The last thing that I changed my mind about is I started offering my clients payment plans.

Jonathan DeYoe: Okay.

Speaker D: I was not offering payment plans for a while. It was only pay in full, and I had a very specific set of reasons why it was pay in full. And then as I started looking at that, I thought, you know, I know mentally where a lot of my clients are when we sign on together. And I work with my clients for a year. So it’s a year long contract, a year long commitment. And I thought, I’m just going to offer payment plans that fit within that year capacity. We’ll break it up into four or five payments for them, and then it’s just coming out like quarterly, let’s say. But that was a big change that I made in my business. I didn’t offer payment plans for several years.

Jonathan DeYoe: Cool. I like that. So if you could get the truth about any single question about your life or your future, what question would you ask?

Speaker D: I would want to know exactly what date I will cross a million dollars in my business. I’m just as impatient as everybody else. And the fact that I don’t get to know the timeline drives me personally crazy.

Jonathan DeYoe: I love it. I love it. Finally, tell us how people can connect with you. How people can find you on the net, wherever. I know that you’re a big, wonderful.

neur Society. There’s about:

Jonathan DeYoe: Kim, thanks for being on the Mindful Money podcast. I’m going to make sure all that stuff in the show notes really appreciate your time.

Speaker D: Wonderful. Thanks, Jonathan. This was fun.

Jonathan DeYoe: You bet.

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About the Podcast

Mindful Money
Do you struggle with money? You’re not alone.
Money is a means, not an end. It’s a necessity of life for sure, but more money does not always guarantee a “good life”. Money enables many aspects of modern life, but as a dominant consideration it becomes destructive. 
The paradox is that more time and energy spent on personal finance does NOT create better outcomes. Unlike many other parts of life, we can’t create better outcomes by being smarter, spending more time, or putting in more effort.
Join Mindful Money author and experienced 40-year investor Jonathan DeYoe as he shares stories from artists, authors, entrepreneurs, and other advisors about how they mindfully minimize their need to think about money and get more out of life.
If you aren’t happy with your finances, feel like money takes more time that it should, or want to place your financial decisions into the broader context of your life, this show is for you. 
Each episode will draw the line between the “enough” activities that the academics tell us are additive to family outcomes, and those “little bit more” efforts that take time and sap energy, but do NOT improve outcomes.

About your host

Profile picture for Jonathan DeYoe

Jonathan DeYoe

Jonathan DeYoe is a best-selling author, speaker, financial advisor and angel investor. He is a husband, father and a practicing Buddhist. His simple underlying message brings a welcomed sense of order to financial chaos and restores a calm center to your financial life.