006: Mark Silver - Enlightening Entrepreneurs To Approach Money with Heart, Spirituality and Compassionate Patience

k Silver. Mark started out in: 1999

Mark Silver: I’m really delighted to be here. Thanks for having me.

Jonathan DeYoe: I’m excited for the conversation. Thanks for being here. So just to set the stage, I know we talked a little bit beforehand. Where do you call home? Where are you connecting from today?

Mark Silver: Yeah, I’m in central Pennsylvania, outside Harrisburg, in beautiful, uh, York county on a really beautiful piece of property. We just planted some fruit trees.

Jonathan DeYoe: Sweet. And are you from Pennsylvania or are you from someplace else?

Mark Silver: No, I’m from same. I’m from this watershed. I’m about 2 hours. I grew up about 2 hours from here, and interestingly, my wife grew up 2 hours from here in a different direction. But we’ve only landed here relatively know not to make it long, but I spent time on the west coast and then in central New York before we ended up.

Jonathan DeYoe: You can. You can provide any structure to this you’d like, but I see kind of two areas of your work that I’d like to get into. First, and I think for the majority of your career, you’ve worked with small business, micro business, entrepreneurs, helping them establish businesses, create systems, and grow. And then second, more recently, you’ve created a course called, and I, uh, apologize if I get this wrong, the heart of money and power transformational journey, where you’re sort of helping people identify and overcome fears and judgments about money and then clear the way for life and financial success.

of heart of money was born in: 2002

Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. So, before the spiritual team, take us back to the beginning, like, when you were growing up, did you learn anything about money, financial success, entrepreneurship? And were there any sort of moments of aha?

et the percentage, but, like,: 2000

Jonathan DeYoe: Well, there’s a difference between. And we’ll probably get into this a little bit later. There’s a difference between the small business, micro business, local business, and the global enterprise.

Mark Silver: Oh, yes, there is. Uh, and unfortunately, so many small business owners don’t have any other template. I mean, now they do, but it was something that a lot of. I know that when I first started, a lot of people struggled because they saw how big companies were doing things, and it’s like, I have to do it that way anyway. So that was really kind of like an opening for me, that moment in life, among others.

Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Uh, it sounds like the journey of business came pretty naturally to you, but there’s also this questioning of what’s the value you provide? And that’s, I think, important for every entrepreneur.

Mark Silver: Yeah. And what are the values you’re going to live by? What are you actually doing? Exactly right.

Jonathan DeYoe: So, can you define for us the heart of business?

Mark Silver: So, heart of business. So I have to go a little spiritual with you on this one, because we welcome it, the real meaning of it. I’ll go just straight to the core of it. The heart of business is, in Sufi, spiritual terms, like, everything is an expression of the divine, of oneness, of the source of love. Everything comes from love, and everything returns to love. And the Sufis talking about something like the heart is the definition of is where the locus of connection is like in the human being. The heart is how, from a Sufi point of view, of course, is how we connect to the oneness, how we connect to the infinite. And everything that exists has a heart, and a business has a heart. And one of the exercises we do and is we have people listen, like, communicate in meditation in prayer inwardly with the heart of their business. And people get really stunningly interesting, insightful information about the business. And I think one of the deepest things is just that the business is not them, it’s separate from them. And it’s really important when you’re a, uh, solo self employed, as many of our clients are, not all of them, but many of them are. And they need to see the business as something separate so that one, the business can grow and develop and become something that can carry them to some extent, and can carry the business even when they’re not there. And so that’s often a profound realization. Of course, less profound meaning of it is just that we want to live from the heart. Love is important, care is important. The heart is important in business. And to leave it out, I think, is deadening and just a stunning mistake on so many levels.

that it’s a reference like: 4000

Mark Silver: Right.

Jonathan DeYoe: How many different narratives do you run into? And coming from the earlier comment of business doesn’t have to be evil. Late stage capitalism problems, huge global enterprise problems. But if you’re just a micro business and you’re operating inside your local environment, serving the local community, do you still think that the people starting those businesses have this business’s evil narrative?

Mark Silver: Well, so people have a very natural and justified reaction, negative reaction to business, because business has done terrible things. Like, we can look at global businesses, but we can also look at smaller businesses, like even the old trope of the used car salesmen or other businesses that just don’t feel like they’re caring for us. We’ve been dealt badly on many, many occasions, and businesses tend to make these decisions profit first, rather than caring for things, caring for the community, or caring for the world around them. And so people have that in them. It’s a very natural, experience born narrative. Uh, I come across very few people that don’t carry that to some extent, and often to a very great extent. There’s often not, uh, a getting over that or a healing that. But what I say is that you can trust your heart. Like you’re sensing something real. Business has done terrible things. And what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to do business from the heart with integrity, still be successful, still you still want to provide for yourself. You still need to make money and pay the mortgage and retirement and all of those things. But you can do that without following in the footsteps of morally and ethically bankrupt business practices.

Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. In the earliest points of my mean, I started financial services on, uh, belly of the beast. Horrible. And I almost quit a dozen times. And I had a mentor, his name was Ernie Guzman. And he took me aside and said, hey, you don’t have to do it this way. You can do it your way. And so it took me five more years to get out of Wall street, start my own firm. But the whole idea of, yes, business sometimes is bad, but you don’t have to be bad. That’s not you. You can have your business, and you can do it your way. That’s a critical lesson, I think. Do you think that people learn that quickly, or is that a really difficult one to get across?

Mark Silver: Well, I mean, it’s hard to generalize because people have different rates of learning depending on what their history is and where they’re coming from and what else they’re walking with. But I think it does. Our education system is built on obedience, not on thinking, not on true problem solving or creative problem solving. It’s built on obedience. Do this, do this amount of homework, answer the questions correctly, and there’s not a lot of room for other ways of thinking. And so there is often a real learning. Uh, I’m fasting for Ramadan, so my vocabulary feels a little attenuated at the moment. But there’s a real learning edge around being able to embrace your sovereignty, being able to embrace the fact that, oh, this really is your business and you can make your own choices. And there’s always some caution there about not wanting to make big mistakes, especially when your survival, financial survival, is at stake. But this deeper sense of like, oh, I really can do what I want. I really can create it exactly how I want to create it, as long as I’m okay with the consequences and can problem solve for that, it’s really tremendous. But it does take time to sink in, and it often takes some practice. People will try something and they’re like, uh, the sky didn’t fall in. Okay, let me try this. Okay. Oh, wow. I really am the captain. I really can do whatever I want.

Jonathan DeYoe: It seems to me a little bit that some of the stuff you talk about is really applicable to a service based business. Coaching, tax, maybe services, maybe legal services, maybe financial services, but really services. Do you have many clients that are product manufacturers or small product manufacturers?

Mark Silver: No, we really do have a niche. Our focus is small service based businesses. I have worked occasionally with companies that produce a product, and sometimes some of our businesses, some of our clients also will produce a product. But it’s pretty rare for us to work directly with a product based business. I think the principles are often the same, but I don’t have the institutional knowledge around. There’s just way different kinds of things you have to pay attention to around profit margins and cost of materials and supply chains that I’m not nearly as familiar with. I’d want someone who’s working, having grown up in retail, which is different, but similar to product production. It’s like it’s such a slim profit margin that you’re dealing with that you really want to know. Somebody really needs to know that side of things to be able to, uh, not steer someone in the wrong direction.

Jonathan DeYoe: I’m going to shift a little bit because something, you quote, you said something to me in an email that I read it probably a dozen times. This is a sentence and I know that, uh, or you know that I’m working with people on the micro decisions they make to make better personal financial outcomes. That’s my goal with this podcast. And in this email you wrote this, and I’m just going to read this real quick. Anyone with heart would have issues with money in this culture. It’s done so dysfunctionally and painfully. The important thing is to not turn away, but lean in and find the love. Can you develop that a little bit? And then, um, I’m going to ask a couple of follow ups.

Mark Silver: Yeah, absolutely. It’s kind of like that’s in many ways the heart of our teaching in many different one trick pony and many different versions. For an example, let me land on a good decision on a good example. So one of the things that we really talk a lot about in business and while in money is people will have reaction around debt. For instance, in the heart of money, when I teaching, people have, they’ll feel powerless, they’ll feel overwhelmed, it’ll be really painful, and they’ll just go, oh my God, my debt. And they’ll be like this kind of a stance is what I often notice. This kind of an energetic stance, or kind of this kind of like in a fetal position or holding your hands out, kind of blocking things away and uh, turning away from it is kind of how a lot of people deal with it and what I encourage people to do. It’s like the way that debt is know, like in the United States, student debt is predatory and terrible and keeps people from living their lives and hurts the economy in all kinds of ways. Credit card companies are outright evil in terms of how they run things. There’s so many different examples we could get into. And so the resistance and the experience is true. Right. Debt can be really painful, but, however, turning away from it doesn’t help. And so one of the practices that we have people do in the class is say, okay, well, list out the different debts and commitments. You have liabilities, uh, and lean in and look at them individually in your heart and see. And what they often notice is that, oh, there are some that I actually don’t have a reaction to, but there are some that carry a lot of emotional load, like, oh, I have a lot of a load around this student debt because it’s really enormous. And, uh, I’m not even working in my field. And no matter how much I pay, it doesn’t go down, or they’ll have something like, oh, I’ve got this debt, and I got an inheritance when my father died, and I was only a young adult, and I spent all the money and then ended up running a credit card up. And so I have all the grief from my dad in that credit card. We have these things tangled in. And so when you take the time to actually look and see what’s going on, there’s a chance for healing, and there’s a chance to say, okay, so what does my heart need so that I can have a healthier relationship with this debt? Because actions arise for me. The way that we teach, the way I understand, is actions arise out of relationship. If you have an unhealthy relationship, you’ll be making unhealthy decisions, taking unhealthy actions. But if you have a healthier relationship, then you can make healthier decisions, and you can take healthier actions that will move you in a direction that you want to go in.

Jonathan DeYoe: So I find myself agreeing with everything and that there’s something in the back of my mind that I want to pick at a little bit. So I agree that our various reactions to our heavily financialized culture are often dysfunctional and totally natural. No one should be judged or shamed for having issues with money. Right?

Mark Silver: Right.

Jonathan DeYoe: And I also want to be leery of imbuing money with too much, like, animating force. I don’t think money pushes us to employ x or y behavior. I think it’s inanimate, and it absorbs and displays our internal fears and concerns more than pushes us to do things.

Mark Silver: Well, I think yes and no. So, first, the yes part is that in our class, in that course, we have people like, I want people to see, that money exists as a physical thing. It can hold any number of different energies. It’s not more or less important than any other physical thing in the world. Yes, I agree with you at an essential level. The problem is that our culture has systems, systemic issues in place that mean that money is different for different groups of people. In terms of access. I think if one of the big errors in western culture, which also is not something I’d want to get rid of completely, because there’s some beautiful qualities in it, but we’re so individualistic, and we heap responsibility on the individual to an extent that isn’t true. It’s just like it’s not true when you have, uh, somebody who’s very young, their brain is still growing, and you say, go to college, go to college, go to college, and then they go to college, and then they end up with a debt. And some people have family resources or other resources, and those debts get discharged, or they never get racked up in the first place. As opposed to other people who don’t have access, generational poverty, or they don’t have access to loans, uh, that have as good a rate, or because of racism or sexism, they get paid a lot less, and they don’t have access to higher paying jobs. So paying down the debt is harder. There’s a lot of institutional and systemic problems that cannot be overcome purely by individual effort and mindset changes.

Jonathan DeYoe: So, yes, I totally recognize that. That’s true with an individual. You’re coaching an individual entrepreneur, a micro entrepreneur.

Mark Silver: Right?

Jonathan DeYoe: Do you have to approach that differently depending upon that person’s experience, or do you apply the same framework? And then that person has to kind of learn and do and become. Because there are some simple, basic things about running a business that everyone kind of has to.

Mark Silver: Well, I mean, again, it’s a. Ah, yes, and. Right, yeah. The principles that we teach have been successfully applied by people from all different cultures, from many different continents and countries and societies. We’ve had clients from the Middle east, we’ve had clients all over Europe, we have clients from Africa, and we’ve know clients in Asia. And it, these, the teachings and the principles resonate at the heart level. And people express such a deep sense of relief when we acknowledge these institutional and systemic issues that they’re facing that it’s not like, oh, okay, here’s another white guy telling me that I can do it no matter what, when they haven’t really faced the crap I’ve faced. And it’s like, yeah, you’re facing a lot of crap. And that’s a weight that you’re carrying. And let’s really acknowledge that and not assume that everybody’s on a level playing field, because it’s not true. The principles and the basic pieces, um, have successfully worked, but because they’re based in principles, it leaves a lot of creativity and stretch in the application of them so that they can look different in different situations.

Jonathan DeYoe: I think you said that two sides of it there that I think are really important. I think we all have a different starting point, and yet there are things. And so there may be some things that I need to do before I can get to the beginning of the principles of business. But for me to actually get to the end of the successful business, of having a successful business and hiring people, having something that actually supports my lifestyle and my family in the future, I have to begin, and we may have to do some work before I can begin. And so I may be behind, but I can catch up. It becomes challenging when we say systemic, not that it’s not true.

Mark Silver: What do you see as the challenge in saying that? I’m curious.

Jonathan DeYoe: No, it’s not that it’s a challenge to say it. It’s, regardless of whether there are systemic issues in place or not, the things that the individual has to do to be successful, the individual has to do right. And so we can collectively do a lot better. But I can’t personally affect that collectivism. Right? Like on a national level, I can in a local level, and I do, and I do my best at that. But when you’re coaching an individual, you’re coaching that individual’s next behavioral step. Does that make sense?

Mark Silver: It does make sense, and I don’t disagree with that. And part of it, I think, is that people aren’t necessarily just acting individually. Like, the heart of one of our offers is our learning community, where there’s a group of people that can lean into each other and get support from one another. And so I think that it’s an interesting point, and it’s often one of the concerns that I’ve heard sometimes people raise where it’s like, oh, and I don’t know if you’re saying this exactly, maybe saying something different, but it’s like where, oh, if we deal with that, is that going to somehow obscure their ability to really do what needs to be done? Or are they going to put the blame on a system and not take responsibility for what needs to be done? And I know that’s probably more. I’m sure that’s not what you were saying, but that’s kind of like a really extreme version of where it goes when you start going, okay, well, we got to be careful talking about systemic pieces. I guess my experience in acknowledging the systemic piece is that people tend to feel way more empowered. They feel more empowered because they feel seen. I, uh, think so often society is gaslighting individuals by saying, oh, you just got to do the same. We’ve all got the same thing in front of us to do. If you just did it, you’d be successful. But when we can really acknowledge, like, for instance, we were talking today, I was talking in a small group, and one of the members of the group was bringing up something. We were talking about being direct, and she was saying, like, if I’m direct, I get called, I don’t know, uh, okay, if we use bad words on this podcast, I don’t know how it’s rated. I get called a bitch, and I said, that’s sexism. That’s not individual. That’s you getting treated differently. Because I don’t get called a bitch when I’m direct. I’m admired for my directness. And so what do we need to do to support you? What kind of support needs to get put in place so that doesn’t undermine your forward movement? Like, we need to account for that. It’s unfortunate, extra emotional labor. I mean, unfortunate is such an understatement, but it’s like, by accounting for that, then what we can do is we can start to work around. We can create systems of support, communities of support, so that she can be super successful, because she can be, and she will be, and she has been in the past. And so many of our clients carry these kinds of things. They’re chronic illness or trauma or single moms or queer community or trans. There’s a lot of folks who just have pieces of their life that are not often represented or accounted for in mainstream culture. And being an entrepreneur is a wonderful way to kind of forge your own path when work situations are not very equitable and also sometimes just needing more flexible time than often jobs allow. But it also needs to account for these other pieces.

Jonathan DeYoe: I think that’s one of the reasons I love the work of entrepreneurial coaches or business coaches, is you are empowering people to take control of their futures, to no longer rely on someone else’s judgment of their ability. Not saying you can get rid of all the challenges, not saying you can get rid of all the things that people will come across or diffuse any of their pasts. You can’t do that. But you’re saying here, let’s chart a path forward that’s in your control. And for me, in working with people, one of the things I believe wholeheartedly is, and the statistics, the wealth and inequality statistics bear this out. Right. The difference maker is equity ownership. Those who own their own businesses, own shares, own real estate, they are building wealth. Those who don’t are not. So by being an entrepreneur coach, you’re actually helping people build wealth. And I think that’s fantastic.

Mark Silver: That’s absolutely the hope. That’s absolutely the hope. And, yes, and it’s delightful to see that come to fruition, to take root and grow. So, yeah, I couldn’t agree, uh, with you more. It’s so beautiful because people feel so empowered when they do embrace their sovereignty. And they do realize they can make the business exactly how they want, and they can make these decisions from love and care without leaving themselves out of the equation.

Jonathan DeYoe: Right.

Mark Silver: And they can do things with integrity. I feel so humbled witnessing that happen over and over again.

Jonathan DeYoe: Tell us one of your success stories. Like, you worked with somebody that had a good idea, but they were really hesitant, and you said, hey, let’s chart this path, let’s work together. And they became. And built something that built wealth for their family.

Mark Silver: Yeah. So, let’s see, we have. Gosh, all these stories come rushing in. So, just to be clear, mostly we work with people who have already tried and started. My specialty is not helping people come up with the idea. Like, they’ve already got something that they’re like and they’re struggling. And because there’s no MBA for these micro businesses, in fact, an MBA does not help build a business at this size. People usually thrash around quite a bit before they get going. But what I’ve seen, I’ve seen people. So there was someone who, um, an acupuncturist who living in a major city who is really struggling, making very low five figures. Very low five figures, which in any major metropolitan area is not making it. They were burnt out. They were afraid that they were really burnt out with the work. They were afraid that they were really going to just need to give up. And we helped them. We helped them kind of see what are the pieces that they can let go of. Where do they really need to focus and then step by step, put things in place. And this was not an overnight success. In fact, one of the things that I really try to drum into people is this sense of compassionate patience that taking a business from what I call the first stage of business development, all the way into momentum is often a two, three, four, or five year process. If you’re trying to do it in six months or a year, there’s just a certain amount of iteration that’s needed that just can’t be compressed into that short of a time period. And so over the course of, I think it was three, four years, she went from low five figures up into the six figures per year, able to take vacation, able to do professional development, able to think about having family. It was just like the breath and like, year by year, just to see more room created and more room created. I had another client who’d started out basically at scratch and had started to put our pieces in place and started to get little bits of momentum. But then her spouse got a job in a new city and they had to totally move. And so for this long period of time, couldn’t really focus on business development, but we helped them kind of just keep doing the minimum. It’s nothing like you already had kids, already had all these things. And so it kind of strips away and like, okay, here’s the essentials to focus on. Just this, just this very little step by step by step. And then they landed and then just a couple of months after, totally full with clients, because they had been just ticking away at these little, little pieces. Now, still in the kind of middle part of the journey. And so there’s more support systems and things that need to be put into place to make it a really robust business, but they’re going to get there because it’s just a matter of time, because the kind of focus and care and self care that they brought in during that time period was just extraordinary. I was really impressed.

Jonathan DeYoe: I’m going to use that phrase, compassionate patience, because I think that applies to so many things, applies to your relationship with your spouse, relationship with your kids, all your relationship at work, your business success, your investment portfolio. Just that compassionate patience. Anytime you try to rush this stuff, it just doesn’t work. Right. You can’t rush it.

Mark Silver: It doesn’t work. I think that there’s a tremendous sense of urgency that’s been put on us. That is a lie. It’s just a lie.

Jonathan DeYoe: That’s that cultural baggage right there. That’s huge cultural baggage.

Mark Silver: Right.

Jonathan DeYoe: You can be successful 20 years from now just by taking small steps today.

Mark Silver: Exactly.

Jonathan DeYoe: Well, I just want to say thanks for coming on. We’re getting pretty close to the end here. I do have a couple pretty traditional wrapping questions. These might be spins for you, but I’m going to ask them what was the last thing you changed your mind about?

Mark Silver: What was the last thing I changed my mind about recently? So I mentioned earlier I’m fasting for Ramadan. This is, like my 22nd Ramadan I’ve been in. And, uh, months and months ago, my boys, I’ve got young teen boys, and they wanted to go to Comic Con in Pittsburgh and this past weekend, and they’re super into pro wrestling, so. Hilarious. Awesome. Anyway, we went, and there is an exemption in Ramadan around fasting, saying that it’s a traveler’s exemption. Like, if you travel more than 50 miles in a day, you don’t have to fast, and you can make up that fast day after. And I was thinking, God, that’s for a different time and place. Like, we’re going to be driving in a car. But then I was talking with my coach and just seeing, like, I was being unnecessarily harsh to myself. That exemption is there, and it’s totally fine. And, uh, we had a great time, and I didn’t fast those two days, and I picked up the fast, so I changed my mind around because I was really set on trying to fast at comic Con, which it ended up being such a compassionate embrace of reality that, um, it was really a win for me and for my boys. They got me instead of me at 50% capacity.

Jonathan DeYoe: That’s great. Did your boys fast with you, or.

Mark Silver: No. No, they’re not fasting.

Jonathan DeYoe: Okay. I’m, um, just curious. I’m a Buddhist, and I try to get my kids to sit with me, and they did for a little while, but not so much anymore.

Mark Silver: Right? Yeah. They’ll find their own path.

Jonathan DeYoe: We got to support them in their path.

Mark Silver: Ah.

Jonathan DeYoe: Is there anything that people don’t know or maybe just don’t remember about you that’s really important to you that they know?

Mark Silver: That’s so interesting. I’m not even sure how to approach that question. That’s so interesting. What would be important that I would want someone else to know? Yeah, I’m not sure how to answer that question. I love life. I think life can be tremendous fun. Uh, love is at the heart of it all. And for me, I try to remember that every day, and I often forget. And then I often remember. But in terms of something about me, I don’t know if we ever.

Jonathan DeYoe: I don’t know if you just answered it, but it’s like there’s this thing you believe, and sometimes you forget. So have patience with me. Right?

Mark Silver: Yeah.

Jonathan DeYoe: Anyway, I appreciate you coming on. This is a great conversation. The fact that your kids go to Comic Con and you support that. I love that. I’m a small partner in a retail game store, and that’s the kind of stuff you do.

Mark Silver: That’s awesome. My kids are so into pro wrestling. And, um, one of my kids, the other one I don’t think would do it, but one of them I’m rooting to get into dungeons and dragons because that’s the. The only way I would spend that much time at this point in my life doing that is if one of my kids took it up. So anyway, we’ll see if I can get him to do that.

Jonathan DeYoe: That’s a whole nother episode right there. I have my Sunday group I’ve been playing for years. Took a long 20 year break after my brother died last year. I’m m back with the same group of friends I played with before. So very cool. Anyway, tell us how people can find your work and connect with you.

so you’re not trying to do: 1000

Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, I’ll put all that in the show notes. Is there any place where you actually connect with other people? Email or social media or anything like that?

Mark Silver: Yeah, I’m on LinkedIn. I’m on Facebook. Yeah, you’re more than welcome to connect with us through the website. It’s there. In fact, if you fill out the assessment, most assessments get a personal reply if I don’t get too overwhelmed with them. And yeah, always delighted to hear from people.

Jonathan DeYoe: Great. Well, uh, thank you so much for being on the Mindful Money podcast. It’s been a great joy and we’ll have all this stuff in there and we’ll stay in touch.

Mark Silver: Thank you. Really glad. Thank you for having me.