075: Kristen Wonch - Overcoming the Hurdle of Limiting Financial Beliefs

Jonathan DeYoe: Hey, welcome back. On this episode of the Mindful Money podcast, I’m chatting with Kristen Wonch. She’s a money coach, refers to herself as a wealth ninja, and she works with women to build a relationship with money that turns them on. She teaches women how to earn more, hold on to more, and grow it more simply. She did the corporate gig, spent everything she made, plus a whole bunch more, ending up in a pile of debt. She hired a coach, and everything changed. She wants to do this for others. She wants to do for others what her coach did for her. She now runs a women’s money mastery program and hosts the wealth equation podcast, among a variety of other things. Kristen, welcome to the Mindful Money podcast.

Kristen Wonch: Thank you for having me. It’s so good to be here.

Jonathan DeYoe: First, where do you call home? And where are you connecting from right now?

Kristen Wonch: Right now I’m in Costa Rica. So I live in a little place called Nosara, which is a tiny little beach, a, uh, hidden gem on the coast of Costa Rica, on the west coast. And I’ve been here for the last three years, but I’m originally canadian, so my family is all in Ontario, London, Ontario.

Jonathan DeYoe: And so how long your whole life there? Until three years.

Kristen Wonch: I spent. I m grew up in London, and then I moved to Calgary, and that’s where I started climbing the corporate ladder. I did the corporate trading gig. I realized my life was not working and got laid off. That was the first time I came to Central America. I ended up in New Zealand for seven years and then found my way here kind of in the midst of COVID which is a, um, full circle moment. Really?

Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. I’m curious, what did you learn about money and entrepreneurship as a kid growing up?

Kristen Wonch: That’s a great question. So, entrepreneurship, I would say not a lot. As a kid, my dad owned his own business, but never really talked to me about it. And so I didn’t even really grow up knowing that my dad ran a business. I just knew that things were happening, I suppose. I think what I grew up believing about money was money. There wasn’t a lot of it. Money was a thing to be stressed about, that it wasn’t to be overspent, that it wasn’t to be spent on things that were luxuries or unnecessary. Right. We only spend on the things we absolutely need, and we spend as little as possible. And my mom was really great at budgeting, and my parents blessed them. They’ve actually both retired early because they were good at managing their money. Right. We didn’t have a lot. They didn’t make a ton. But my mom knew how to really manage money, but I didn’t grow up knowing. We didn’t talk about money openly. We didn’t talk about numbers. I think for many of us, we didn’t grow up really learning how to manage money, what to do with it, where to spend it, how to invest. Right. We never talked about that. And so that was something that I didn’t learn until much later in life, as you kind of shared in my intro, I’d made a lot of mistakes along the way to get to where I, um, am.

Jonathan DeYoe: Which part of it do you have siblings?

Kristen Wonch: I have a little brother, actually, who is. Oh, my goodness. He’s 21 now. He actually just flew off to Europe for the first time on Monday. I got a message from him this morning. Yeah. I grew up basically an only child because I’m so much older than him, but he’s there kicking around.

Jonathan DeYoe: I asked because I’m curious. I’ve had other guests on the podcast talk about their parents who had businesses, and their dad would have a business, and they would involve their son, but not their daughter, in the education process around money and entrepreneurship. I’m wondering if you have that same experience.

Kristen Wonch: I wouldn’t say that. You know what? It’s really interesting because me and my little brother got such different versions of my parents, right, because we’re 17 years apart. And so they were financially, emotionally, intellectually, just at different stages of life when I was born versus when he was. And so something for me, I remember, and I said this to someone the other day, my dad. So he did own his own business, but when I remember when I was in huh, probably high school. I begged him. I begged my dad to hire me. He runs an exterior renovation company, and so he installs windows and doors. And I was like, I will be the hardest worker you’ve ever had. And I meant it. I had a job at Burger King when I was 13. I worked really hard growing up, and my dad refused to hire me. And I remember being devastated it and gutted. And I don’t know why at the time. I don’t know if he would have done it differently. Looking back, I don’t know if it was because I was a girl and girls aren’t as strong. I have no idea. But for whatever reason, he was a no to that. And I just remember being gutted, but I made it work. I made it work.

Jonathan DeYoe: So that’s one sort of money story. One lesson one learns is dad’s not going to hire you. Um, how did that develop? Did you take that and say, am I not worthy? Or how did that translate into, did you go, no, I’m going to work harder and get another job someplace else?

Kristen Wonch: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know why my dad was a no to that, but I do remember growing up, the philosophy around everything, especially when it came to my dad, was like, there are no handouts. Like, you don’t get handed anything. So I can count on one hand, probably two fingers the number of times I was just handed money growing up. So you had to work for everything, right? And I grew up with a very strong and solid work ethic. And I think what that cultivated in me was the belief that I can make money like I can work and then I can achieve things. And so this amount of sort of resilience and independence and also agency for me to create things in the world, right? I never believed that I was reliant on other people to make things happen for me. I was like, I can just do that. And I think that has served me in a lot of ways because it allows me to achieve and get great results, and it allowed me to climb the corporate ladder and check all the boxes and do all those things. And where I found it doesn’t serve me that same belief, I think a lot of the time. What got you to there, what got you to here won’t get you to there. And so the same belief that I can work really hard for things has actually led to different points in my life where I’ve been burnt out or I’ve been overworking, or I’ve been working 16 hours days and barely paying myself with my last business. And so the belief that you have to work hard for money is something that over the last number of years, I’ve worked really hard to unwind and rewire. Because now my belief is that things can be easy, right? That you get to work hard and you get to show up and be committed to the things. But also it gets to be easy when it’s easy and allowing that in not overworking yourself.

first working super hard for: 1520

Kristen Wonch: Yeah, that is such a great point. I think probably two things around that. First is, I think often the ease that you have when it comes to work comes from mastery. And so there are certain things about my business now where I onboard clients or I run programs or I can show up to a coaching call or even our launches, there’s a certain amount of ease built into it because things are predictable, because I’ve done it before, because I’ve built mastery in these areas. And so I think that a lot of the time that ease comes from the things you’ve done repeatedly. Right? It’s like going surfing for the first time. It’s not going to feel easy, but when you get on your thousandth wave, there are times when it feels in flow. And then there’s also the days you don’t make the paddle because the ocean just hits you. So there’s that piece around mastery that I think a lot of people show up expecting things to be easy and not being willing to put in the commitment to get yourself to a place where you feel in flow. And then I think the other piece around that is, I tend to see, and I don’t know how much this is going to resonate with your audience, but there’s masculine and feminine energy, right? The masculine is the driver. It’s the ambition, it’s the strategy, it’s the logic, it’s the reason. It’s the precision. It’s the goal setting. And then there’s the feminine, right? The feminine is the surrender. It’s the trust, it’s the receiving, it’s the intuition. It’s the flow. It’s the creativity. And I think both are really important when it comes to building businesses and creating wealth and doing life in general. Both of those energies are really important. And everyone can probably think, as I say this, like which energy you feel more comfortable in. For some of us, we feel more comfortable in our masculine. And whether that’s like nurture or nature, that’s where I feel more comfortable. I trust myself to get results through ambition, through doing. And some people are really in their feminine, where they just trust themselves to receive, and they can really be in flow, and it’s harder for them to be more in their masculine. And so I think for everyone really acknowledging and understanding, where is your work? Is your work more to lean more into that masculine, to do more, to have more of the strategy, to put more systems and structure in? Or is your work to build more ease in, to build more of that surrender and that trust and, uh, the allowing and the being?

Jonathan DeYoe: So we’re using phrases masculine and feminine. I get the sense that this isn’t a gender thing, necessarily. It’s something else, it’s energies.

Kristen Wonch: No, we all have both, right? Like, whether you’re a male or a female, you can imagine moments where you’re really creative. You can imagine moments where you’re into the goal setting, right? And so both men and women, and I’m a woman, right. I identify as a woman, and yet my masculine energy is my comfort zone. And so I think it’s, again, I don’t know if it’s nature or nurture or a little bit of both. But I think I trusted myself from a very young age to get results through doing, through in that controlling space. And so we all have both.

Jonathan DeYoe: Um, I’m thinking about, you know, the gallup polls or the gallup effort strengths finder and these kind of things. Is it you want to balance between the two, or do you want to go deep into one that you’re good at?

Kristen Wonch: I think it’s really the integration. I don’t like the word balance because it almost makes it feel like you’re kind of oscillating between one and the other. It’s like really the integration. It’s the fact that you can set goals for the business and you can have a, uh, really solid strategy in place, but you’re not in that gripping controlling energy. You know, when you’ve set the structure and you can allow yourself to receive, or when you’re in that creative flow and you use that creativity to set the strategy or to guide what you’re doing next or to take the action from that place instead of just, like, forcing it and doing so, it’s really the integration. It’s like, all the best pieces of how you do both of those things really well.

you don’t know this, but in: 2021

Kristen Wonch: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. And I’ll just offer you. I don’t think it’s a matter of doing it wrong. Right. You learn to trust results from a certain place, right, from action. And in our society, we’re socialized to believe that the masculine energy is the way to make shit happen. Right? It’s the way to make money. It’s the way to achieve. It’s the way to climb the corporate ladder. And so society really doesn’t socialize us to value a lot of the feminine energy aspects, right? Like the building relationships, the empathy, the having emotional intelligence, all of that. And so I think that’s a really important piece is like, you’re not getting it wrong. You just learned one way of doing things, and now you’re seeing that it would be helpful to add in new ways of operating, right? Because you’ve probably mastered certain elements of that one area, which is beautiful, because for a lot of people, they struggle to master the things that you’ve mastered, right? Like, they’re really in their feminine. They can’t get shit done. They’re floating around, and they’re not being able to create things and make things happen. And I think with all of this, there’s no perfect version of it, right? There’s no perfect amount of integration you’ll have. There’s just a constant kind of awareness of where those times you’re falling back into patterns that aren’t serving you or aren’t helpful. And for me, it’s the same thing, right? There are times every day where I’m like, I catch myself in that pattern of working a little bit too hard or too much or past the time where I’m, like, I’m way too tired, or I catch myself writing the story of, like, it’s not enough or it’s not good enough, right? And so it’s like catching yourself in those micro moments versus aspiring to this version of perfection, which we will never attain.

Jonathan DeYoe: Such a mindful response that you have there, Jonathan, you’re not doing it wrong. You’re just integrating. You’re always integrating. So I listened to your podcast. As I said, I stalked you a little bit, and a lot of your messaging actually sounds like a financial advisor. So I have two questions. One, where do you get your information? Like, what are your sources? What do you read? What do you listen to? And then two, what is the difference between your formula and then sort of the traditional personal finance model?

Kristen Wonch: That’s a great question. So, as far as what I actually read and listen to a lot of podcasts, I don’t actually watch the news. I very rarely tap into that. And this is just my personal philosophy. But I think a lot of what you hear in the news, it’s a really negative spin. It’s like a subsample of, like, 1% of the most negative things you can. Because that’s what sells, right? Like, the reality is. And so it’s not an accurate reflection of what’s actually going on. So, for example, right now, you hear a lot of shit about the economy and how the economy is not doing very well and where we’re headed and catastrophe. And I don’t think it’s very helpful to take your mind to that place. I think what’s way more helpful is to take your mind to the place if I’m the kind of person that does well regardless of what is happening in the economy. And so I’m very selective about what I allow into my field, into my periphery. And so podcasts, I find, are a great place for that. And then my own coaching in my own circles and my own kind of friendships and networks. So, my finance experience comes from. I have a career in corporate trading, and I have an MBA in finance. So the tangible, tactical logistics of finance come from there. And then also exploring things I hear about on podcasts. Like, I found this new app yesterday that gives you every single place that your money exists, whether it’s your crypto holdings or bank accounts in New Zealand or in Canada, and aggregates it all into one place to show you, minute by minute, what your net worth is doing. And I literally lost my mind. I was, like, nerded out for hours with this thing. So I think those are some of the places that I find new things. That’s how I do research around that space. And what makes my work different than most of the regular teachings around finance are probably a few different things. First of all, I think that the finance industry makes things really complicated and inaccessible for a lot of people. It makes people feel dumb for not knowing. And I think it’s so unhelpful, because the reality is, most of us were not taught this in school. And when you look at things on social media or you hear crypto bros, you think that everybody has it all figured out. And the amount of times I’ve had conversations with people who talk about their trading portfolio or the things that they’re investing in, you dig a little deeper, and I ask a couple of questions, and you realize they’re just losing money. Like, losing a whole bunch of money. But other people are looking at them like, oh, my God, they’re so smart. I’m the only one that doesn’t have it figured out. And so I think, for me, what’s really important in the work that I do is for women, especially, but all of us in general, is just, like, making it really simple and accessible and explaining things in a really uncomplicated way, because the finance industry is set up with all of this jargon and all this bullshit that isn’t required to build wealth or to make money. And I think that’s really important, that everyone knows that they can do this. And then another philosophical thing that I think is strong transition away from what we’ve always learned is we’ve always learned to pinch pennies, right? That we shouldn’t be allowed to spend, that the late factor that you shouldn’t buy the avocado toast. And my philosophy when it comes to using your money is, like, every dollar that comes in, every $1,000, every $10,000, you just get to decide where that goes. So I would never tell a client, you can’t buy this or you shouldn’t buy this. I just make them aware of what decisions they’re making. Right. And when you can see, when you can actually look at the numbers and you can see I have the choice to spend $1,000 on this new bag, or I could put that into this investment. And this is what it gets me long term. And you realize there’s no right or wrong, even when it comes to debt. I don’t believe that debt is good or bad. But when you know what the numbers break down into, you actually get to make a decision that makes sense for you. And maybe you choose to take on that debt, maybe you don’t. Maybe you choose to buy the bag, maybe you choose to make the investment, but you’re actually making decisions from. I understand the impact of my decisions. I understand where it’s leading, and I know what I’m getting out of it. So there’s that piece of it. And then the biggest thing that I teach in all of my work is the power of mindset, like, really understanding your beliefs. I could give you the full formula for wealth. It’s why I don’t offer diy courses, because I could give you everything, the end to end roadmap. And you won’t do anything with it because you’re running the belief of, I’m not good with numbers, I’m not good with money, or, this isn’t going to work for me, or I’m not the kind of person that could make seven figures or all of these things. And so we all have beliefs. Like you asked me when we got on the call, what are some of the beliefs had about money? Right. All of the beliefs you have about money, all the beliefs you have about yourself, the beliefs you have about the world that drives every single one of your actions, and most of the beliefs that you’re holding, you’re not even aware that you have. You actually think that it’s true. You think that it’s true because you’re a photographer, you could never make over six figures? Or you think that it’s true because no one in your family has ever been wealthy, that you can’t be wealthy. We believe our own bullshit. And so all of those places, the most powerful work that I have ever done in my life and with my clients is realizing what things you’re believing so that you can change those beliefs. Right. It’s not valuable or it’s not helpful for me to believe that there’s never enough money, right? If I want to be really wealthy, I have to change that belief. I have to start looking for evidence of there’s actually more than enough, and I can earn more than enough, and I can always have more than enough. And so that work around mindset and what you’re believing in any given moment is some of the most transformational work that we do inside my program. And that is actually what leads to you earning more money, you feeling confident with your numbers, you being willing to invest, you being confident with investing. All. It’s like the beliefs are the foundation. It’s like building a house on quicksand, right? You can have the best tools and the best builders and the best floor plans, but if you’re building on quicksand, it’s not going to go anywhere versus having that foundation of rock solid beliefs. And then everything is just, ah, a lot more powerful.

Jonathan DeYoe: Do you think this conversation is getting harder? Do you think that generationally, and this is a sense I have, I’m Gen X. I feel like that when we look at the generations, you look at the greatest generation, they had all these battles they did worked really hard, and they created this success, and blah, blah, blah. And then the boomers, and then Gen X, and then people look at this and say, gen Z, millennials, they’re having a harder time getting over the beliefs that they can’t be successful, because it is. So. I literally just wrote about this, like, I wrote about this just yesterday, because I worry that the messaging that we’re putting out into the world is so negative all the time, and it’s like, it’s inequality and you can’t do it, and we need to change the system so that you can be successful. No one can be successful anymore. It’s so hard. It’s so hard. It’s so hard that. How do people believe differently? And are they being infected by this sort of lack of belief in themselves and their ability to overcome adversity?

Kristen Wonch: That’s a great question. I think every generation probably has their own sets of beliefs that they struggle with, right? I would imagine the boomers believe that they can work hard for stuff, right? Like, uh, that’s part of their philosophy. I think the Gen zers. That. I’m Gen. What am I? Gen X? Gen Y? Yeah, the Gen zers, whoever’s my little brother. I think you’re right. They spend a lot of time on social media, and they spend a lot of time believing that certain things are and aren’t possible for them. I think everyone experiences their own sets of beliefs because of what the most common and popular narrative is from society at any given moment. And I think everyone can change their belief. So I think you do this work and you really go through the process of understanding that your mind is creating it all. And sometimes it’s hard to change a belief, but you can change it at any stage, at any level. And what I mentioned before around, um, the reason I don’t watch the news is because when I watch the news, you pick up on the beliefs that you’re being fed, right? So whether that’s your friends or your partner saying, or your parents, right, you have to really do deep work to build your own beliefs, to the point where you’re not picking up on those around you or surrounding yourself with people who believe things that are supportive, right? And so I don’t think it’s valuable. Even the question around inequality. Are there examples of inequality in the world? Absolutely, yes. Uh, are there many studies and examples of women being paid less than men? Are there many examples? I used to be a commodities trader in Calgary, right? I was one of a handful of women in, uh, a sea of gray haired white men. Is it valuable for me to tell myself that I can’t be as successful because I’m a woman? Well, no. So I showed up to work every day, just not looking for evidence of that. I was looking for evidence of the ways that me being a woman sets me apart, the ways it makes me more memorable at a networking event when you’re in 200 other white men, right? The way that all of the ways that I can be exceptional and successful because I am different, right? Of course I could find evidence to the contrary, but that’s not going to get me where I want to be. And so I, um, think that’s really important, is that everybody know, whatever your beliefs are that you’re starting out with, you can change them. I think there are four reasons why you would keep believing a belief that’s not serving you. The first is that you don’t realize you have the option to believe anything else. No one has ever told you that it’s possible to believe something different, that you have a lot of evidence for that thing that you believe to be true, right? You’ve been collecting evidence for a long time that there’s not enough money there, right? And so you believe that’s true. The third reason is because it would force you to. If you change your belief, you would have to admit that you had been wrong about the original thing or that you had been running a belief for a long time. That wasn’t helpful, right? Which some people are really tied to the way that they’re currently operating because they’re like, I don’t want to be wrong about that thing, even subconsciously. And then the fourth reason is because that belief is serving you. And so there’s all kinds of reasons why you think about, and this is probably going to rub a lot of people the wrong way, and they might turn off this podcast, but the inequality conversation, right? Believing that, uh, there are certain things structural in society that mean you can’t be successful. Well, that belief serves you, because if you have that belief, you don’t have to go after your dreams, you don’t have to risk failing. You don’t have to go after your goals. You just get to sit in action and stay safe. Well, that’s not going to get you a large and fulfilling life, so stop telling yourself that shit. And I think that’s the conversation that a lot of people don’t want to have with themselves. Some of the most powerful work that I’ve done is the moments where I’ve leaned into, how am I creating my reality? Like, the reality I say I don’t want? How am I responsible for most of this? It’s like, really hard to face. It’s so much easier to blame other people. I’m like, no.

Jonathan DeYoe: One of the frustrations I have is, and this is true, if you read news or listen to media, right, is it’s all negative, just as you said. And I can’t change that narrative. I can’t change the public narrative. I can’t control what media focuses on the negative. I can only help one person at a time. See, this is the story you’re telling yourself the story is not true. How do we change the story? That’s one at a time. We can do that. But then that person that you’re trying to help them change the story, they go out into the world and they experience all the negativity again, they experience all the people, tell them they can’t do it. So how do you overcome that? There’s a huge hurdle. You’re trying to help one person at a time, and then they live in the world. There’s a huge hurdle there. How do you overcome that hurdle? As a coach?

Kristen Wonch: Yeah, I think you have to be very selective about what you allow in. It’s really important because it is hard filtering the media that you consume, how often you spend scrolling on social media, the newsfeeds that you allow yourself to be a part of is one way. And also being very selective about your friends and family, right? So if there are certain friends that you have, and I’m not saying cut all your friends and family that don’t believe the same things, but just be cognizant of where and how you allow them in, right? For example, when I’m not feeling at my best or well resourced or I’m feeling sick, I find it harder to spend time with people that have a lot of negativity in their beliefs and their values, right. Because I don’t have enough resource to hold my own in those scenarios, right? Or perhaps there are friends that you have, that you’ve been friends with for 25 years that you love to bits, but maybe you just don’t spend every day with them because they’re super negative. Maybe you only see them once a week or once a month, right? And you slowly introduce people into your life, into your communities, into your circles that hold the beliefs that you want to believe, and also that have inspiring, aspirational conversations so that most of your. It’s not about an all or nothing thing. Like you can never have any negativity or any news. You don’t have to stop watching the news like me, but it’s about what percentage of your environment or your surroundings do hold those supportive beliefs. Where can you find those people? Whether they’re online, whether they’re in your communities and introduce more of those people into your life, right? So that the times maybe you go home and your great aunt Sally thinks your business is bullshit and it’s never going to. You’re. That’s not all that you’re hearing. So you’re like, okay, I got you, Sally. It’s fine that you believe that I love you anyway, and I have enough of the rest of it that I’m able to hold. It’s why coaching and coaching containers are so powerful, right? Because you get to have that coach that holds that belief and holds that vision for you. So you can keep coming back to that even in the moments your waiver.

Jonathan DeYoe: So it sounds like it’s not just a function of not taking in the negative, it’s actually seeking out the positive. You talk about staying well resourced. So what can somebody do to stay well resourced? What are some of the ways that you stay well resourced?

Kristen Wonch: Yeah. So first of all, surrounding yourself with those people in different communities. So for me, I always have my own coach. Right now I’m working with a one on one coach, but sometimes I’m in a mastermind, which is a larger group, community of other people that are very values aligned, that have very big goals, big dreams. And so the conversations that we’re having around business or business strategy are really supportive and expansive. For me, going to events like, I went to, uh, an entrepreneur event in Croatia this year a couple of months ago, that was just like, mind blowing, five days together. You can do those kinds of events or retreats, or you can just go to a networking event with people that do hold the same kind of energy and values that you really aspire to expand into. You can join Facebook groups where people are talking about the things that you want to talk about. It can be co working spaces. I have a co working space here that the people that I meet know. It’s not structured necessarily or organized, but the people you meet at the water cooler you have conversations with are very expansive. It’s like they’re having a global impact. They’re working on really cool stuff. It’s like, we’re super fun to connect with those people. So that’s some of the stuff I do around community building. The choice to live in Nosara is very intentional. The people that are attracted to Nosara are really successful, ambitious people. They also value a very slow, spacious, nature filled life, and they also value health and wellness. And so the people that are attracted here and having conscious conversations are the type of people I want to be in community with. And so just the choice to live here, I think that’s something a lot of people don’t question is, like, is the place that you’re living, are you just there because you’ve always been there? Or is it somewhere that actually works for your life? Right, and what is that? Especially with everyone having the ability to work online and be remote, you can move anywhere, you can do anything. What would you choose if you could create from a blank slate? So there’s that. And then just personally resourcing myself on any given day or moment, really, like meditation, like, connecting to my daily meditation practice is really important. There are many times I sit in meditation and I’m like, that did nothing. I was, like, in my head the whole time. Like, it’s not working, right? But I still try to come back to that. There are many days I miss it, right? So it’s not about perfection, it’s just building in that rhythm. Um, there are days when I do breath work because I find that really helpful and supportive for my nervous system. If I’m feeling anxious, I also am a lot more. I mean, I always move, and I do a lot of activities so yoga or surfing or I’ll go to the gym. But then there are times I mentioned to you before we got on the call, I’m feeling super sick this week. And so I think Monday I nap for 3 hours. And I was like, I never normally nap. I’m like a go getter. I don’t take a lot of downtime during the day to just do that. But I’m like, my body just needs to sleep. And so giving yourself, and I have the luxury of, like, I’m very flexible with my time running this business, but giving yourself space to do that, it’s like, I’m not trying to connect with a bunch of friends or really power through a whole bunch of work. I’m like, uh, no. I’ve taken a lot of things off my plate because my body just needs to heal. So I think that learning when you’re kind of at your capacity, or my friends ask me on the weekend, like, are you coming out to these events? And I’m like, no, I’m doing nothing. I’m going nowhere. I don’t want to do anything but rest. And so that’s, I think, really important.

Jonathan DeYoe: To just one of the things I’m hearing is someone who practices this, who takes it seriously, who teaches, uh, it, who thinks about it on a regular basis, spends a lot of effort maintaining that, well, resourcedness. Like, there’s daily practices, there are sort of emergency practices. Uh, I’m m getting overwhelmed. So there’s this thing that I got to do. I got sick, so I take a break. So it’s knowing yourself and actually constantly feeding yourself so that you can be well resourced whenever you might need it. It’s a daily thing. It’s every day, yeah.

of, like, I’m working till: 11:00

Jonathan DeYoe: I’m still struggling with the idea that you spent a whole bunch of years pouring from an empty cup before you could pour from a full cup. Like you did overwork and built a foundation from which you were able to be more restful. I do think you have to put in that time. Uh, you said getting to mastery, we have to put in the time getting to mastery, and then we can kind of relax a little.

Kristen Wonch: Yeah, I mean, yes and no. I think my path has always been, like, I had to learn. I was always the kid. Like, I have to burn myself on the stove before I’ll believe that it’s hot. So in a lot of ways, I have to make mistakes. That has been in my nature. I don’t think I needed to have that mistake to build mastery. I think there were a lot of things I needed to learn along the way as far as building a business that serve me now. But I do think the pattern of overworking could have been avoided. I don’t think that it was necessary to put in the 16 hours days because building that business, it didn’t contribute to the wealth that I now have.

Jonathan DeYoe: It didn’t contribute to the wealth, but it contributed to the lessons that contributed to the wealth. Right.

Kristen Wonch: You have to learn the lessons, the lessons and the skills. But I think, I do believe that I could have made it easier for myself.

Jonathan DeYoe: Sure.

Kristen Wonch: We’ll never know. I like where you’re going because I do think a lot of these things you do have to learn what doesn’t work in order to find what does. So I think you’re right there.

Jonathan DeYoe: You got to throw a whole bunch of stuff at the wall to see what sticks. Right? So you’ve spoken about, I think you said it recent, a little bit earlier here today, men and women are socialized to treat money differently. Mhm. So how is that true? How does that show up as kids and then how does that show up in terms of our results, in terms of our investing results, in terms of our behaviors?

Kristen Wonch: Yeah, I think a couple of things on that. So, first of all, women are socialized to believe that they’re not good with numbers. And studies show this over and over again. I think you can look up, there’s one study that comes to mind where women, two groups of women doing a math test. And the only difference between these two groups of women doing this math test were the first group of women were reminded that they were women. Right. By, like, what is your gender? Before the test started and the other group weren’t. And the group that was reminded that they were female before they started the test actually scored lower on the exact same test. And so that just like when we’re ingrained with the belief and we’re so unaware of this, that we as women, are not good with numbers, that we’re not good with money. And I think that shows up in a lot of. It’s the primary dialogue. I hear women say, smart, successful, ambitious women that have created insane things in their life have this weird thing. I’m not good with numbers. I’m not good with money. It’s just not my thing. It’s like the primary thing I hear women say, and it’s fascinating. And so I think that’s one thing that holds a lot of women back, because they don’t even start exploring. They don’t start looking at their money. They don’t start building practices or rituals around it. And so I think that’s really important to be aware of is that belief that dialogue might not even be true. Right. And I think in general, when it comes to money or wealth, women in society, men are encouraged to grow and expand and to be ambitious and successful, and they are applauded for that. Right? If a man builds a seven figure business, everyone looks at him like he’s the best thing since sliced bread. Right? Like, you’re amazing. You’re really rewarded for that. And this is a really tough conversation to even have. Women are not. They just are not a, uh, woman building a seven figure business is judged in a lot of ways by other women, by other men. We aren’t socialized that it’s polite to talk about money. Right. And so I think this is a generalization. Right. There are a lot of families that don’t operate this way. There are a lot of women that don’t feel this way. Right? And so this is societal programming that doesn’t impact everyone in the same way. But I do think it does hold women back, because a lot of women, the biggest thing that holds them back is not feeling safe to have and hold and make a lot of money. They believe they’re going to be judged. They believe that they’re not good with money, and so they try to get rid of it. They believe that they’re going to be a target, whether their family members are going to ask them for money or whether people on the Internet will say bad things about them. And so that lack of safety that women feel by growing really big, by expanding really big, I think, holds a lot of women back. And so the difference between where and then just back to what you said at the beginning of the call, I do believe a lot of families, they teach young boys about numbers, about money, about this is what you need to do. And they don’t teach the same things to girls. There are just those kind of broad things that are happening, and again, not specific to every person or every family or every human. But I think those kind of broad, sweeping strokes, those are the things that we get to do the work around now, to really reprogram, because it’s not just a matter of, like, women are taught different things, and so they won’t be as successful. It’s like anyone’s beliefs. And men have really unhelpful beliefs as well. Right. Men have different things that they struggle with. I think something, uh, that a lot of men run into is feeling like they have to be the provider. And so there’s a lot of pressure now, especially as women are starting to earn more money. I hear, uh, a lot of men say, like, I have to be the provider and feeling a lot of pressure and stress around, oh, my God, now I have to make even more money because she’s making money and I got to support her. And so I think men have different things that they struggle with. It’s not just like women got the short end of the stick, but those are some of the things that I think appear across differences in the genders.

Jonathan DeYoe: I think in the last, maybe ten years, five to ten years, the number of women starting businesses as a percentage of all businesses being started has skyrocketed. The number of black and brown people who’ve started businesses relative to the total percentage of businesses started has skyrocketed. Obviously, that’s a positive. Do you think that’s a change in how we’re raised to think about money in some of those programming, or is that just like a spring, it compressed and it’s just shooting back?

Kristen Wonch: Yeah. I do think that there’s a shift in society around the conversations around equality and opportunities for people. Right. And so as those conversations become more important and more prevalent, possibilities are created where possibilities didn’t exist before, whether it’s for marginalized groups or different ethnicities or women. And I think that’s really important. And I also think something that really shifts it is when people start to see more people like them at the top, right? Like when you see someone that represents who you believe yourself to be, whether it’s black or brown or a woman or whatever, asian, be really successful or run an eight figure business and you’ve never ever witnessed that before, you’re like, oh my goodness. If it’s possible for them, it’s possible for me. And so I think you’re starting to see more and more of that. And I think that creates a lot of expansion and belief for people in starting out, for sure.

Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. I had a manager, Ernie Guzman, in the late ninety s, and he was Latino. Ernie Guzman. And I was about to quit, like I wasn’t going to be a financial advisor anymore. I kind of hated the, uh, environment. It was an awful Wall street environment. And I asked him, he was my manager, I said, hey, so how do you keep doing, like, how do you keep moving forward? Because we agree it’s a horrible scenario. Wall Street’s gross. And he goes, you know what, Jonathan? I am modeling for all the little boys that look like me that don’t think that they can manage an office in San Francisco in a huge Wall street firm. I am modeling. I go back to my family, I go back to my community, and they see me in a suit and they notice that they can be this way. So having those models so important. So, I mean, kind of taking a leadership stance in having been a trader. I didn’t realize you’re a trader. That’s great. Uh, having an MBA, doing all the stuff you’ve done, you’re taking this leadership stance in this. And I appreciate that you’ve mentioned, and I want to go back to finance here for a second. You’ve mentioned three fatal mistakes that investors make, and I’d love to have you mention them here.

Kristen Wonch: Yeah, I think, well, there’s a few.

Jonathan DeYoe: There’s many more than three.

Kristen Wonch: Probably the biggest mistakes I see people make are trying to time the market. There’s a difference between a trader and an investor. And so an investor thinks about buying great investments at a great price and investing long term. And that’s very much what I teach. And that is way easier, honestly, it’s way easier and way less stressful. That’s what I teach inside of my work. And then there’s traders who, what I was doing in corporate, I would have minutes to make, the market would move, and I would have minutes to put a deal together. Like, I would be buying from canadian producers and selling to refiners in the states, and I had to make a margin on my deals. And so trading minute by minute on moving markets and trying to predict where those markets are going is stressful and it’s unpredictable, and it’s actually a lot less profitable. And so I think what a lot of people think when they get into investing is that they have to be able to predict where things are going. And the stats show, by and large, that’s not profitable for most people. Just lose money doing that, and I myself have done that in my own portfolio, and I almost always lose money. But it’s fun, it’s sexy. Uh, that’s what people want to hear, because it’s sexy. But the reality is, if you want to make money, the unsexy, the boring thing is really what works, right? Like, look at Warren Buffett. He’s not doing sexy stuff. He’s just been in the market a very long time. And so that’s, I think one thing that people get wrong is trying to buy and sell in and out of positions and predicting where it goes, and you don’t need to make money. And the second thing is just paying a lot, like overpaying in fees. Most people have no idea what they’re paying in fees. They don’t know the fees on the funds that they’re invested in. They don’t know the fees on what the advisors are charging them, and they don’t know what those fees add up to. And so the way that they’re calculating those fees are just incorrect. And so that’s something that people, I don’t think that there’s a problem with fees. Wherever you’re investing, whether it’s a robo advisor, financial advisor, or any other platform, a self directed platform, you’re going to be paying fees, but it’s important to know where those fees are, what you’re paying, and what they add up to. And that’s the biggest thing, I think people just don’t have any idea how to find and calculate. And one of the last ones, I think, is people make a lot of mistakes. And I see this a lot of just not being diversified. So the number of people I talk to that have all of their investments in crypto is crazy to me. Like, I’ve had clients that have over 100 grand and their whole portfolio is just cryptocurrency. And the market drops by 50%, they lose half of their money. And so a lot of people don’t realize when they’re only invested in one or two things that they’re actually taking a lot more risk. And what happens often is they don’t realize they’re taking on risk because the market is going up. So everything like rising tide raises all boats, right, is the phrase. And so they don’t realize they’re taking on so much risk. And they’re like, well, it’s going up, we’re making money. And it’s like, you haven’t made money until you’ve sold that investment, until you sold that position, until you’ve sold it. Actually, all of your money is just still at risk. And that’s not a problem. But you just want to make sure you’re not having all your eggs in one basket. And so even if you love crypto as a space and you think it’s the best thing since sliced bread, or you believe that one thing you’re invested in, that one company is really going to the moon. I love that. I love that for you. But also put your money in a few different places so that you’re not taking on so much risk if that doesn’t go the way you thought it would.

Jonathan DeYoe: I just remember late ninety s I was investing in. Late ninety s, I was starting to be, uh, an advisor in the late ninety s. And people would say, oh, no, I have Microsoft and I have intel, and I have apple. I’m diversified. I’m like, no, that’s not. Where’s your, whatever, pg e? Where’s your stuff? That’s, uh, your Kodak, your stuff? That’s not sexy. You need some.

Kristen Wonch: Yeah. Well, and even just to tell, like, the reason that isn’t diversified is because those are all like, large cap investments in the tech sector, right? So you’re only exposed to that one industry. And most people don’t even realize. Most people would hear what you were saying and don’t even know why that’s not diversified. And that doesn’t mean you’re dumb, it just means we don’t learn this stuff. Some of it’s counterintuitive, some of it you just need to learn. But we’re not taught a lot of this in school, so if that’s coming up for you, just lean into it and start listening to more of these podcasts and getting a sense of where do you need to learn and to grow and to become more knowledgeable to really give this a good go.

Jonathan DeYoe: Um, I think the listeners are hearing an echo. Like, this is the kind of stuff I talk about all the time. So I appreciate you stating these things. There’s a whole bunch of noise out there. Uh, I like to ask every guest to really simplify it for listeners. If the goal was better financial outcomes, what is one thing a newish woman investor should focus on that would lead to better financial success?

Kristen Wonch: Say the question again.

Jonathan DeYoe: What is one thing that a newish woman investor should focus on that would lead to better financial success?

Kristen Wonch: I know this is going to sound so simple, but really sitting down with your money and building in habits and practices and rituals around it. So I think that the most common thing I find for women especially, but probably most people, is avoiding your numbers. When you avoid things, they’re not going to expand, you’re not going to have a handle on it. You’re going to wonder where it all went. So really getting clear on what money is coming in, where is it going, and how can I be making sure that some of it is going to my savings, an emergency fund, some of it’s going to my expenses, and some of it’s going toward those investments? You can start investing with as little as $50. It doesn’t have to be overly complicated, but when you know where your money is actually going, that’s how you keep more of it and you allow it to expand. Right. And you can see, where is my work? Do I need to be earning more or do I need to just be using more of the money I have in a better way, or do I already have a whole bunch of money sitting in savings and I really need to figure out how to invest? So which of those three pillars is most important for you? And when you start sitting down with your money and building in those rituals. Right. Like, have a hot money day. I love my hot money day. Just building in that practice of grabbing a glass of wine and sitting down with your numbers, and it’s exciting to see them. It’s exciting to sit down with them.

Jonathan DeYoe: I mean, the advantage of financial planning isn’t that you have a document, that’s a plan. It’s that you are visiting your numbers and you’re spending time thinking about them, and you have a process to revisit your numbers. That’s the advantage of financial planning. So I totally agree with you. So that’s one thing to do. What is one thing that maybe she’s heard she should be doing and she should just ignore?

Kristen Wonch: Ooh, that’s a good question.

Jonathan DeYoe: It’s often not the thing you’re told to do, it’s the thing you don’t do that makes the big difference.

Kristen Wonch: So what is that thing something that you should be doing that you should just ignore? Well, I think that really being constricted around spending is something for women to ignore. I think the idea that the reason that your money is fucked up is because you’re not budgeting, you know what I mean? Or, uh, you’re spending too much, I think that’s something that people need to ignore. I think the reality is that earning more is probably the biggest thing that’s going to drive your wealth for you, is really doing what’s required. Is it raising my prices? Is it getting a promotion? Is it negotiating at my current job? Is it moving companies? What’s the biggest thing that’s going to quantum leap your income and then using that money in a really just efficient way? But I think most people start in that I need to spend less and that’s going to move the needle for me the most. And that’s probably for most people. Unless you’re like a dramatic overspender, that’s probably the last place to actually look at. It’s the earning more money. And it’s like, how do you start investing if you’re not already doing that already?

Jonathan DeYoe: I totally agree. I think that part of the reason that the spending issues become so large is because the people who control most or controlled most traditional media are, um, boomer types. And so as you approach retirement, that flips. Like now, it’s not an issue of earning more, it’s an issue of spending less if you’re overspending, but if you’re twenty s and thirty s, it’s always going to be an issue of earning more. There’s an age thing that matters in that calculus for sure.

Kristen Wonch: That is such a good point. I never thought about that. But yeah, you’re right. It’s going to be different depending on what stage of life you’re at.

Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. And as long as you’re younger and you’re on the upswing. Yeah. Work to earn more, that’s absolutely what you should be doing for sure. I want to come back to personal real quick, and I don’t know if you’ve listened to an episode so you know that you’re expecting this or not, so some people don’t and so they’re shocked. So what was the last thing you changed your mind about?

Kristen Wonch: The last thing I changed my mind about, that is a really good question. I don’t know if this would be the last thing, but something that’s a big one that’s coming up for me is really what we were talking about before, of the idea that you have to work hard for money. And so the reason this is probably appearing in my mind is because it’s a constant work in progress around finding all of the pieces of evidence to support the idea that you don’t have to work hard for money. And so that’s been a big shift in the last couple of years for me, even if it’s not the most recent thing I’ve changed my mind about.

Jonathan DeYoe: Totally fine. I mean, I’ve heard this morning I was going to have, uh, an avocado for breakfast, and I changed my mind. I’m going to have it. A banana. It’s the most recent, but it’s usually not the most exciting. So why? Is there anything people don’t know about you? Or maybe you’ve told them that they don’t remember, that you really want them to know about you?

Kristen Wonch: Is there anything people don’t know about me? Yeah, that’s a really hard question. I think something, and I don’t know why this is coming to my mind, but something I want, uh, people to know is just, I think there’s a lot of people that sort of look at me in my journey, and especially what I’ve created, and they think that what I’ve done or what I’ve built, or even we talk about the practices and how my day looks and all of that. It’s like I’m never going to get to where she is. And something that I really want people to know is, even after doing a lot of work around personal development and really shifting my life in some really dramatic ways, my primary belief that I struggle with is, like, the story that I’m not good enough. And so I think that I share that because I think that is probably the most universal belief that we all hold, and it appears for different people in different ways. But even after building this business and serving all of these clients, there are still times in my week where I’m believing I’m like, I’m not a great coach, or I’m not doing enough for the business, or it’s not growing quickly enough. And so that story, for me is like something that you wouldn’t see when you go to my social media, or you wouldn’t see even probably. I mean, my clients would probably know a little bit about that. But I share that because those are the things, the moments where you’re telling yourself you’re not good enough or you’re down on yourself, or you’re running a dialogue that is just not helpful, not supportive, I think we all have that operating and it’s the work of, um, not just not getting rid of that, but recognizing when that’s appearing so that you don’t have to keep telling yourself that story. And so I share that because I want everyone to know we’re all humans, we all are going to run into these things that our brain tells us, and it’s not a problem. It’s not a problem at all. You can create amazing results, you can build the wealth, you can have the successful business and still have stories that appear that are like, I’m not good at what I do.

Jonathan DeYoe: It’s a feature. You’re human. Welcome to the human race. Like, you question yourself constantly. And I do the same thing. Very successful, whole 25 years in the industry, built something huge. So I totally get it. I suffer from the same thing. And it’s good to admit that. So people that have that and it’s holding them back, they can maybe release the holding them back and recognize they’re going to have that and there’s nothing they can do about it. You can’t get rid of it. It’s always there. So, Kristen, thank you so much for being on the Mindful Money podcast. Tell people how they can connect with you, where they find.

Kristen Wonch: Yeah, so thank you so much for having me. By the way, we had some, uh, really good questions. I’m on a lot of podcasts and I don’t often get such juicy, deep questions, so thank you for all of that. I can tell you’ve done this a lot and people can connect with me. Probably on Instagram is the best place to find me. So, Kristen Wanch, Kristenwonchxox and I have a free pdf for people called 100 money blocks. I can send you the link for that and you can drop it in the show notes. And that just gives a breakdown of all of the money blocks that might be running through your head and how to start really rewiring and dissolving some of those. I went through all of my client calls and all of the coaching calls that I had ever done and I identified what are the things people say that are standing in their way. And they all boil down to six things, and I outlined them really clearly in this thing and people love it.

Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, great. Send us a link and we’ll include that. And again, thanks for coming on. I’ve enjoyed the conversation very much.

Kristen Wonch: Thank you so much. You.